Andy

Back in the days when the Australian dollar was almost on par with the US dollar, I got it off Ebay at around US$240 or thereabouts. Of course the US dollar has strengthened significantly both against the Australian and Singapore dollar but the price has also come down a bit, not on Ebay necessarily but at least on Amazon. It looks like good value for money. Have a look at the website for the current price. I can't say how much it would cost in Singapore since I didn't look it up there.

Here is the review of the DT860 which I wrote a while ago. Originally it was posted here but I decided to share it at these forums as well in case it wasn't as accessible on that review website. Hope it is of sufficiently high quality to be deemed worthy of these forums. It's pretty lengthy, the way I've always written reviews, but I hope you'll bear with me. A Note to the Reader: Before we begin, please accept my sincere confession- I’m not an audiophile and have never claimed to be. However, I’ve attempted to familiarize myself with the terms that some audiophiles use so that I can better describe the characteristics of the DT860 in this review. In Oct 06 I purchased the Audio Technica ATH-CK7 earphones and it was my first foray into the world of high(er) quality audio. For almost two years it was the standard that I judged everything else by, partly because it was the only pair of ‘phones I had, and also because I was familiar with its signature after listening to it for some time. In this review, multiple comparisons may be made between the new DT860 and my old CK7. The World of Sound After working for several months my parents had been joking that I should start paying some rent, seeing that I was still living with them. So I made a promise to buy them our very first home theatre sound system. Neither of my parents knew very much about sound, so they left me (arguably the wrong person to look to) to do the research. Before long it was obvious that we had another problem on our hands: even if we were to buy a full sound system, we were going to have difficulty running the wires under the house and attaching the speakers to the wall. This idea went out the window very quickly. Then one night my Mum brought the local magazine in and showed me a full-page advertisement for a number of Tivoli systems. They were expensive but looked fitting for our living room. I took this as a hint and bought her a Tivoli Model CD and radio Model Two. While at the store I auditioned the Denon D-M33S, a compact stereo system. The sound captivated me for the longest time after that. If my Mum wasn’t so dead set on the Tivoli, I would have bought her the Denon instead…cheaper, and I preferred the sound signature. I couldn’t forget my Dad either, so he got a drill set of equal value. I was close to putting down the money for the Denon system after a few weeks of thinking, but ultimately I decided to get myself a pair of full-size headphones, for I could still carry these around with me and even use it on the plane. The search took me through a mind-boggling array of headphones from various manufacturers. A query at the local forum yielded some recommendations but unfortunately not an overwhelming response for any particular model. To cut the long story short, I did my own research and bought the Beyerdynamic DT-860 (Edition 2007). First Impressions The DT860 is a member of Beyerdynamic’s Premiumline headphones, manufactured in Germany for discerning audiophiles, and claimed to be of superior craftsmanship. The DT770, DT880 and DT990 are three classics held in high regard by those in the know, and it is this trio that perhaps made the Premiumline famous. The other three models in this category are the DT440, DT 660 and DT860 but much less has been said about them. But for those who use portable devices, this shady trio might be hidden gems. They have an impedance of just 32 Ohms, making them easy to drive to high volumes even with a small MP3 player, hence conserving battery life. In comparison the DT770/ 880/ 990 have an impedance of 250 Ohms and would certainly benefit from the use of a portable amplifier. The DT860 comes in its own foam-padded leather case with the Beyerdynamic name and logo and a carry handle. It is suitably padded on its sides but not on its front. Inside the package you will find: - Beyerdynamic DT-860 headphones with 3 meter single-sided straight cable and gold-plated 3.5mm headphone jack with screw thread - 6.35mm adapter with screw thread (for 3.5mm jack) - guarantee certificate (two years from date of purchase) - instructions for cleaning and replacement of ear pads Picking up the DT860 for the first time, I was quite surprised at how large and weighty they were, making my CK7 look microscopic in comparison. That is to be expected of circumaural headphones however, because the ear cups need to be large enough to fit around the entire ear. The outside of the ear cup has a classy appearance with a chrome-plated periphery, and a black plastic grill in the center embossed with the model number ‘DT 860’. For the observant ones, there are Braille markings on the appropriate ear cup that stand for 'L' and 'R', indicating the left or right side. These could be of help to the visually handicapped, enabling them to slip the headphones on correctly. The DT860 is classed as ‘open-back’ headphones and this is plain to see, considering the sound driver within the ‘phones can be seen just past the black plastic grill. The inside of each ear cup is characterized by a thick, plush circumaural ear pad and central foam pad (to cover the sound driver) that makes for a listening experience that is supremely comfortable. The ear pads seem almost breathable because my ears only feel slightly warm after extended periods of listening but never uncomfortably hot. If I had to nitpick, I’d wish for thicker ear pads so that the central foam did not touch my ears, but this would make the headphones ridiculously big and cumbersome. Both ear cups swivel 90 degrees allowing the ‘phones to be placed on a wall or picture hook, and they also fold into the headband for storage if necessary. The headband is thick and feels durable. It is padded on the inside and is fully adjustable on both the left and right side. Precise and smooth adjustments can be made with audible clicks to every notch. Right out of the box the DT860 was a natural fit for my head, needing no adjustment at all. Headband pressure is rated at 2.5N which is less than that of the DT770/ 880/ 990 trio, and probably more comfortable. Nominal headband pressure means you won’t feel as though your head is being compressed laterally everytime you listen to music. The DT860 has a straight, single-sided cable that exits from the left ear cup. It is pliable enough that it doesn’t spring around and get in your way or get tangled in objects by accident, and at 3 meters it is long enough to stretch to the CD player on the table behind me while I work on my computer at a separate workstation. It ends with a standard 3.5mm headphone jack that features screw threads, allowing it to gel precisely with the 6.35mm adapter included in the package. Overall appearance is best described as ‘posh’ and in-tune with modern times. They look and feel expensive, which is a given considering their price. My first pair off Ebay was dead on arrival with the right side completely non-functional. It was a nervous few weeks before I got my replacement pair. This leaves me with a few question marks regarding its build quality but I am hoping that this was one of the rare lemons off the production line. Sound Signature When I listened to the CK7 almost two years ago I almost complained about it being ‘too bright’. Interestingly the shopkeeper himself thought otherwise, saying that perhaps my ears were more sensitive than his, which is a good thing. Nothing prepared me for the experience I was about to get with the DT860 because it made my old CK7 sound dark in comparison. If I had to describe the DT860 in a few words, these would be: bright, forward and warm with dry bass. The DT860 renders treble in greater clarity than I was getting with the CK7 and a quick comparison with the same song and system was very revealing. What sounded like the cymbals of a drum now reveals itself as taps on a tambourine with the DT860. Separation of the various instruments is more convincing and there is increased detail in the sound. When listening to some piano solos I can not only hear the note but also feel the strike of the key. It is the same feeling one would get when in close proximity as the hammer hits the string to create a sound. In saxophone segments of the song, I can still hear the musician’s breath at the mouthpiece even when it lacks the strength to create an actual note on the instrument. Coupled with its strength in the highs is the warmth in the midrange, giving an impression of fullness of sound and smoothness. The sonic signature of the DT860 is forward or aggressive, with the voice of a singer feeling very close to the ear. In some recordings where the singer used to sound fairly distant, these ‘phones bring the listener closer for a more personal performance. Another striking difference between the CK7 and the DT860 is the comparatively lean and dry bass in the latter. When stacked up against each other the bass of the CK7 sounds boomy and even muddy, whereas the DT860, although offering better base definition and extension, sounds rather thin. The bass attacks and fades rapidly, bounding like a rabbit, making for a lively listen, but those who dislike such tight bass may be better served with other headphones. Soundstaging is wide and imaging is superb with the DT860. The soundstage itself seems to stretch slightly wider than 180 degrees, which is wider than the space between the left and right ear. The sound of individual instruments may manifest anywhere in this space depending on what song you listen to. The experience with vocal Jazz music is just phenomenal because of the articulate nature of these ‘phones. The sound is not anywhere near ‘surround sound’ like what I experienced from the two speakers of the Denon mini hi-fi system I mentioned earlier, but this comparison is hardly fair. First, they are in different classes of audio equipment altogether, and the DT860 costs less than half of what the Denon did. Conclusion Echoing what I mentioned in my review of the CK7, the ‘best headphones in the world’ does not actually exist. An attempt to attain audio perfection is impossible because everybody listens to different kinds of music. Even within the same genre, everyone has a different idea of what constitutes the ‘perfect rendition’ of their music. Personally, I would consider the DT860 to be one of the leading mid-priced, full-sized headphones for vocal Jazz because of the intelligibility it lends to the music. The wide soundstaging puts the listener in a lounge as it were, presenting him/ her with a lively, involving performance. Courtesy of the open-back and breathable design, the DT860 is comfortable on the ears for longer periods of listening without risking the buildup of undesirable amounts of bacteria in your ear canal. However the open-back design is a double-edged sword. While it allows you to be more aware of your surroundings in case you take it to the street, it also leaks a lot more sound (may irritate your in-flight neighbor) than closed headphones, and external noises will prove more intrusive to your listening experience. To that end, the DT860 might seem to be a pair of ‘phones confined to home use. I’d rather look at the flip side and consider it to be good for those who like great quality audio anywhere while still being aware of the horn of an on-coming vehicle! The DT860 experience has certainly taught me that there is a lot more than what I can currently hear, even in the music I frequently listen to. While the CK7 didn’t give me nearly as much detail, it was also 3-4 times cheaper and very much smaller. In the future, I could very well buy into something else that would trump the DT860 in performance. But at the moment, I’m really enjoying my music. Final Notes Devices used to audition the DT860 - Sony CMT-CP1 - Tivoli Model CD - iRiver H320 - Sony NWZ-S618F - Xtra X-1 Portable Amplifier Music used to audition the DT860 - Steve Tyrell: A New Standard (Vocal Jazz) - Various: Hi-Fi Room Presents Best Of (Vocal Jazz) - Diana Krall: The Look of Love (Vocal Jazz) - Gota: The Best of Gota (Acid Jazz) - Keco Brandao: Delicate Touch of Bossa (Jazz/ Bossa Nova) - Lisa Ono: Jambalaya (Bossa Nova) - Acker Bilk & Strings: Stranger on the Shore (Instrumental- Clarinet) - Various: Timbre of US $8,800,000 (Instrumental- Violin & Piano)

I couldn't answer this question informatively since I haven't listened to a lot of headphones. But perhaps you could clarify what you mean by 'space'. Would this mean that you want a wide soundstage? What's your budget like? Not long ago I bought a Beyer DT860 off Ebay and prices have fallen further on Amazon since then. Looks like a bargain in my opinion. A little lean on bass but certainly great in the mids and highs, nice soundstage. They're open headphones though, so I'm not sure if that's what you're after.

Haven't listened to a whole lot of MP3 players. Pretty much only listened to the ones I have bought, although these have also been at the recommendation of others. Shortly after I fried my iRiver H320 I did some searching around and landed up with a Sony S618F, which is an older flash-based model with only 8GB of memory and not expandable. But considering I thought the H320 sounded really good, I think the Sony fares just as well and seems to be more bassy. It drives my full-sized headphones ok even without an amp but the impedence is only 30 ohms. With an xtra x-1 amp the whole setup sounds pretty good and it didn't cost me hundreds upon hundreds of dollars either.

Sorry for the super-late reply. Should have checked back here more often but I thought the thread had gone dead. Yes, the Sony player arrived a few weeks ago and while I can't compare it directly to my now-dead iRiver, the Sony still sounds great! It does seem to be a bit more bassy than the other devices I've previously used (CD players included). I had the EQ on neutral for a while and then decided to up the ClearBass one notch and it reminds me of the sound I used to hear on my friend's Sony CD player. They probably all use the same bass-enhancing algorithm. Overall the combination is excellent at this stage...my headphones supply the mids and highs, amp is good for bass and adds warmth to the mids, and the MP3 player supplies the bass. I'm honestly surprised considering I never thought much about the name of Sony. I have the suspicion that the internal circuit of the iRiver is fried, not just the battery itself. With my amp for example when the battery last went dead, I simply removed the batt and when hooked up to the adapter the amp worked as normal. The iRiver seemed to have the same circuit when I opened it to remove the batt, but when I hooked it up to the adapter nothing happened. It became warm but that's it. Definitely fried.

It's unfortunate to hear that. I've been out of the MP3 world ever since getting the H320, but as you can see, the death of the device caused me to start searching again. Actually, I dislike shopping for gadgets like these because the choices are numerous and there's supporters of each brand and model. Some may say the sound is great, while others may say it doesn't sound as good as [insert some other brand or model number here]. That's where the confusion starts. I just got word that my Sony MP3 player has shipped today, and I should have it in a week or so. Hope it turns out to be a good one. What an expensive mistake this has turned out to be.

Hmm...the price is perhaps the only put-off. I haven't heard much about Kenwood devices at all, although I've seen plenty of their speaker systems. Price will drop with time, I'm sure. Bearing in mind that I might burn up this new MP3 player in a similar manner, I think the Kenwood will be in the pipeline!

That's an interesting thought. Even now it still seems that some people rave about the H100 and H300 series of the iRiver players, especially the H100 ones. Makes me even more angry at myself for the mistake. There was a mention somewhere that the Cowon X5 has better sound than the iRiver H300 series, but I couldn't find it at all even on Ebay. Now I bought myself a Sony S618. Not sure how good it really is but there were some glowing opinions on Sony players in general on a thread at Head-fi, with one member mentioning that the S618 was his favorite.

I just gave in and bought a Sony S618. It's an older MP3 player, from what I've read, however there appears to be a positive opinion of it. It's impossible to find that 'perfect' player. The Cowon iAudio 7 that seemed really attractive turned out to have no option for multiple playlists and some even complained about the sound quality (despite the bulk of users giving it the thumbs-up). Anyway, I hope I didn't make the wrong decision to buy the S618.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've heard some good and some very cold reviews towards iPods in general. Are there any particular versions that sound much better than the rest? For the most part I've seen people mention that some iPods were great on style but not so on music quality. What about the Sony players? Anyone with experience on them? Thus far I've only thought of Sony for style.

Any more suggestions from the folks here? The Cowon D2 and iAudio 7 are clear choices at this stage but I don't completely like either of them because they don't have support for multiple playlists. Could anyone point me towards other MP3 players with a true playlist feature? Now I'm really starting to miss that H320...everything I wanted from an MP3 player. I probably could buy one 2nd hand, but it might not be the smartest move.

Well, I'm buying from Ebay for sure. Guess what...tried adding the item to my cart and then proceeding to checkout, and it says that the item cannot be shipped to my address in Australia. Oh bummer. Now it's just the choice between iAudio 7 and the D2.

Haha! The time it takes me to apply and then cancel the darn thing might be more trouble than it's worth. However, I've found a couple of CCs that have no annual fees and a good number of interest-free days...perfect if I were to pay the bills as soon as they're due. Hey, I've been looking closer and closer at the iAudio 7 and it's looking very tempting considering the prices. I could probably get away with a 4GB (US$99) for very little money but the shipping (US$49) would kill me. In total it'd still run about S$200 for a 4GB version. The 4GB D2 on the other hand runs at US$144 (and US$49 for postage) to put the total up to S$262. Is Amazon going to be cheaper? If the price is significantly less then it might make sense for me to get the CC temporarily.

Good question, for I really have no idea. At the moment I have had no need for a credit card and hence, regardless of how high or low the fees are, it's an additional expense I don't need. This is why I've held off getting one for so long. It might seem very strange however, because most sane people would get a credit card as soon as they could, even if they didn't actually have any income. A credit card would put right away some of the issues I have with buying online, however Paypal has helped me a lot so far, especially buying off Ebay. Credit card is convenient, but I'm not sure if I can justify the expense. There's always some talk also about cards with no fees (with drawbacks such as very high interest, or otherwise only temporarily free of fees), but nobody's been able to point me towards a good choice as of yet.

Hmm...I don't see it being written anywhere, but can playlists be created on the D2? What sort of file format should the playlists be in? From memory the standard Winamp ones had the M3U extension. Will the D2 read these sorts of files?

I see...now it makes sense to get a D2 instead. Looks like Amazon is out for me. There were many times I wish I had a card but most of the time I don't even need it, and it doesn't make sense to pay all those fees. Nevertheless, I'll have a look into it. When buying additional cards to expand on memory, do I need to buy a specific class of card? Will a slow card cut it?

Ah yes, I noticed that. Factor in the 7% GST and it looks like it's going to cost me a heap. Naturally I want 'cheap and good' but these terms are usually mutually exclusive in today's world. I've flushed thousands of dollars down this technological toilet bowl to date. In most cases they were things that broke down on their own, but this one... *sigh* Yes, I'm in Australia. Buying off Amazon makes good sense as their prices seem okay. But the main beef I have is that they pretty much take credit cards only. I doubt if they take Paypal, and even if they did, whether they would accept it from an Aussie bloke. Ebay was the other thing I was looking at, and here the prices vary wildly. Some are inexpensive and others are a ripoff. How else can I buy from Amazon if I don't have a credit card?

Yes, that's what I've always done when looking at external HDD. The SD cards are always getting cheaper however, so I'll need to look out for that. Cowon makes the iAudio 7 as well. What's your opinion on this?

Thanks for the link. Wow, $400...it's time to get broke again! I'm actually considering to buy just a 4GB version and then to add large capacity cards as they get cheaper. Would this make more sense if I do not need massive storage immediately? I'm still in complete disbelief as to how royally sc**wed things can become in just a few seconds.

Now before I even begin, I have to admit that I'm angry (and even sorry) at myself for what I have done. It was downright stupid and careless but it goes to show how easy it is to ruin the things you love the most. Now with that out of the way, here it goes: It's been a roller coaster ride trying to get my portable music setup running again. First, my Xtra X-1 amp battery ceases to work. It is revived with the help of a very kind member here who sent the battery all the way from Singapore to Australia so I could have a working amp...not to mention the very reasonable price I paid for a new batt. Then I searched for a pair of full-sized headphones and bought a Beyer DT860 off Ebay. The first example arrives DOA with no sound from the right side. Sent it back and it took almost 3 weeks for everything to be resolved. The new pair arrived last week, and with a working DT860, X-1 amp and iRiver H320, I was in musical bliss. It was perfect. TOO PERFECT. When I arrived home today I needed to charge up my iRiver, so I hooked it up to an adapter to charge. Now here's where the stupidity begins. The plug for the X-1 amp was all too similar to the plug for the iRiver charger. The sizes were identical. So with both chargers on the ground near the socket, I plugged one of them into the iRiver thinking that it was the correct charger. Needless to say, it took just two seconds for me to realize it was the wrong one. I switched over to the correct charger and monitored charging. The iRiver started to feel warm after just a short time of charging, so I disconnected it completely. The most alarming thing is that the player will not turn on at all. When hooked onto the CORRECT charger the screen does come on but it glows awkwardly. iRiver charger output: 5V, 2A X-1 amp charger output: 15V, 500mA Obviously, I fried the MP3 player. It doesn't take an electrician to figure that out. Question is, can anyone now suggest how it can be repaired, or if it's even worth the cost? Thankfully I have a full backup of all my music elsewhere, but I've lost the MP3 player I've used for over 3 years and have come to love dearly. Yes, I'm an idiot...but now that I've decided to not cry over spilt milk, I shall start the hunt for a new player, if my iRiver has been fried beyond economical repair. I have very few requirements for my next player but they are quite specific. Size is not an issue for me, considering that the H320 itself has been quite sizeable. I'd prefer a flash-based player, since it appears that all hard disks have a limited lifespan and I don't want to be stuck having to change one. Also, I'd prefer the player to use standard AA or AAA batteries rather than an internal rechargeable battery. After the last couple of incidents with both my X-1 amp and iRiver, I think this has become pretty clear to me. Most important is that the player must have the best possible sound. But as long as it can play a wide variety of file formats, I have no need for nifty features to display pictures, play movies, fancy screens etc. Like the H320, it should mount easily onto either PC or Mac computers and be instantly recognizable as a removeable disk without needing additional software. It should be able to read standard playlist files (if applicable) that can be created with Winamp and the like. It should have a line-out jack because I want to use it with an amp and bypass the onboard equalizer. In an earlier thread I saw some people recommend the Cowon D2. How much does this cost in Singapore? I may opt to buy off Ebay instead, however. What other players should I consider? I'm hoping to buy a good one, and fingers crossed, keep the same one for the next decade or so. I would have done that for my H320, if it didn't meet an untimely death. All suggestions welcome.

Thanks for the suggestion. The 'surround sound' looks promising although one or two reviews have said otherwise. It looks like it would have been a good option for me but unfortunately I ordered a Beyerdynamic DT860 (2007 edition) from a US store about 2 days ago. The price seemed alright though and including shipping it'd cost me little over S$350. It has a foldable design as well but unlike the Ultrasone that you mentioned it is open-backed. I hope this means 'bigger soundstage' because that's exactly what I want, but the drawback of course is the poorer isolation when being used outdoors. It didn't take me long to realize that my 'requirements' were almost impossible to fulfill, and I simply needed to find the best balance I could get.

I see. If only I were still staying in Singapore, but like I said, I've been in Australia for a number of months now, slogging away in a vet clinic. With regards to photography this place is like a desert, nowhere near as easy to buy and sell like in Singapore. And for audio gear, I really don't know where is the best place to look. Overall though, I've found electronics to be markedly more expensive here than in SG. Any of the phones I want to buy may be ridiculously expensive here, which is why I want to get them off Ebay. Anyway, I was about to put down AU$500+ on a very nice Denon mini-compo system I heard at a shop when buying a Tivoli model for my Mum. The sound was so lush and the soundstaging was plain awesome...almost as if the sound fills the space between the two speakers and extends beyond. It was on 20% discount as well. Very tempting, but it was the floor demonstrator model with a few scratches on the CD player unit itself. Then I thought carefully about it: AU$500 will get me an extremely nice pair of headphones that I can take everywhere with me, and if comfortable enough, be used at home also. AU$500 is approx. S$650. But as you can see, I am hoping not to go overboard by spending so much, which is why I'm looking for some of the best value options within that price range.

Thanks for the confirmation. Was just reading up about headphone basics to refresh myself on a few things that I read many months ago. As you can see, I don't know much about audio equipment at all...just looking for something that I can really enjoy. The DT880 (250ohm) is a heck of a lot more expensive than the 80ohm version. Would you happen to know how much the 80 ohm costs in Singapore?

That's what I should probably do...to audition a pair of phones before buying it. However I am working overseas, have been here for the last 6 months and will be for the next 9 months. If I were patient enough I could probably wait. Hence I plan to buy off Ebay instead. Unfortunately I do not know how Ebay prices compare to Jaben. Looking at the CK7 price for example (based on what I paid there before), they are about on par. I've read a few threads about the DT770 where some users used it for gaming and movies and loved it, but as a guess, phones for enjoyment of music are going to differ from those used for gaming. On Amazon they mention the DT770 (250ohm) whereas on Ebay I've found those rated at 80ohm. Is there any difference in the sound quality? I intend to run the phones straight off an MP3 player without an amp, so I'll need to choose the corrrect one.

Ok. So far there's been two votes. One for the Audio Technica ANC7 and one for Audio Technica A900. Any more suggestions? What about the lesser A700? Or what about the Beyer DT770 or DT880? On this forum, I've seen it being mentioned that some people do not like the type of sound produced by noise-canceling headphones and in another case someone even went so far as to say that IEMs are for audiophiles and NC headphones are for travelers who are not into critical listening. Is there something more about NC headphones that I should know about? I have no intention of getting another IEM however, because the CK-7 has already fulfilled that desire. Also, I may actually enjoy phones with a different sound signature...something that sounds warm and lush could be a nice switch. I found the CK-7 very analytical and with the bass appearing a little recessed. But I don't consider this a flaw, knowing that the great clarity is a real plus. Hope to hear any more suggestions from the good folk here as I'm looking to buy soon.