Regardless of price difference: Goldring DR150 vs Grado SR225?

[dw1narso 0]

Hi Guys,

 

Need your advice to upgrade from Grado SR60...

 

I love Grado's sound... and definitely don't love Sennheiser's sound...

 

I'm blown away by Grado RS-1 after hear them at Bram's system (RS1 with well regulated PiMeta + AD8065)... I must say that RS-1 + his Pimeta is... "powerfull but very behaved sound" and leave my SR60 to dust...

 

SR 60 sound coloured compared to RS-1...

 

But... RS-1 is away out of my budget... and I'm looking for something in between for the next one or two years...

 

Regardless of price difference... which one would be better DR150 or SR225?

 

I check but nobody seems to write/comparing between both in written in this forum...? do I skipp the review?

 

Oh yes... the cans will not for portable... I use it with a serious CD player and PINT amp... (which might be upgraded to PiMeta in the future....)

 

Thanks,

---

David

[afbug 0]

If you like Grado's sound, go for the SR225 or try a MS2. If you're not using them for portable, why post in portable subforum?

[Mackie 0]

I concur. You already know what you like so why defer to Goldring instead? If so, you might as well take a look at Beyer, AT and AKG. However, do take a look at what MS has to offer as it won't stray too far away from the Grado signatures that you've grown to like.

[dw1narso 0]

Hi Afbug, the moderator... right..?

 

Yes... I'm sorry... I just realise that I post on the portable audio after I post it and walk back home... (I did post it in my work's pc)... too late...

 

though not really portable actually when I travel for a bit longer usually I bring my SR60 since it can be flat packed and use it to listen through my laptop headphone socket...

 

Maybe I do not stated it clearly...:

 

- I like accurate sound... a bit forward is OK but I avoid laid back sound... the reason is because I want to use my headphone as my alternative monitor during tweaking my other rest of equipment or trying my DIY amp or others...

 

- I used to believe what SR60 sound and use it as my monitor... but after I hear RS1... I realise that SR60 is coloured and not accurate... (a bit thicker mid sound)

 

- I read somewhere that MS2 is more comparable to SR125.... which in my opinion is not a jump over SR60... I listen once SR225 which I found quite a jump over SR60/80... a lot more detail and instrument separation from SR225 (of course the biggest jump I've ever experience is when I listen to RS1)

 

- I did try some AKG and like the sound too... but I think they are pricier than Grado for the equivalent model...

 

- I mention DR150 because it seems that it is a bit forward and can deliver a lot of details too... which might be not far from Grado... if DR150 is flatter than SR225 then it might be even a better choice for me... (back to my first reason above... I need an honest monitor phone...) since I understand that the forwardness of Grado is mostly because it is a it peaking on high frequency...

 

- If DR150 is really a good value... which do you think it will be comparable to other phone brand? regardless of the price? (so for example... for Grado to SR125 or SR225?)

 

FYI... I do not live in Singapore... I just one or two times a year come to SIngapore because of my job... and usually only have a very limited time to shop around in Singapore...

 

Thanks,

---

David

 

[Guest joi-ful]

^ I believe the threadstarter meant the frequency response when he mentioned about how flat the DR150 is. Based on my untrained ears and unamped source (DAP), I'd say the DR150 is flatter than the Grado's. But flatter response doesn't necessary equate to more accurate sound, they still sound rather coloured, and have a very different sound signature.

[afbug 0]

Hi Afbug, the moderator... right..?

 

Hi, I'm not a moderator and have no wish to do so. If i'm one, there is no need for me to ask you where you post. I'll just move it.

 

Edit:

BTW, MS2 is better than the SR225 to my ears and it is a huge jump from a SR60. So you might want to try them. Alessandros are more neutral than Grados.

Edited August 15, 2006 by afbug

[dw1narso 0]

Hi Joi-ful,

 

thanks for your reply... I understand that frequency response do not automatically relate to accuracy.... in fact the same with something sound sweet usually is also not accurate in the real sense...

 

Just... the flatter the response (provided that it does not remove any inside detail) will make me easier to work on the equipments behind the phones... (I'm tweaking cd player, cables, amp, etc...)

 

Although my budget is limited...my standard is high... by mentioning accuracy I mean comparing to the real musical instrument sound... This is something very difficult to get... I've heard violin played only 1 meter in front of me... I've heard a piano played few meters of me too... I'm dreaming to reach that realism in my system...

 

But... soundstage is not really important to me... especially with headphone... which I don't think we can get with stereo recording.. (unless we go with binaural recording). I guess what we can achieve with headphones maximally is instrument layer separation... and that is what I hear on SR225 better than SR60...

 

Hi Afbug,

 

I'll give Allesandro a try then... seems to be a good candidate too...

 

Last question... out of topic...

 

what is the considered as the best converter to create OGG and FLAC file format? (just like LAME for the MP3)?

 

Thanks,

---

David

[Mackie 0]

^ I believe the threadstarter meant the frequency response when he mentioned about how flat the DR150 is. Based on my untrained ears and unamped source (DAP), I'd say the DR150 is flatter than the Grado's. But flatter response doesn't necessary equate to more accurate sound, they still sound rather coloured, and have a very different sound signature.

 

Now this is misleading. If a can exhibits a flat response curve in between the frequency extremes eg 5Hz-30KHz, where a natural rolloff is apparent., technically speaking, the can should not sound colored as coloration is caused by a hump/notch (dB gain/cut) in certain frequency band. This simply contradicts the flat response curve theory. Secondly, unless one has worked with parametric eqs and involved in studio work, I dare say the common perceptions of a neutral/flat sound is quite far from the truth. In fact, most (myself included) who have heard it while correcting their room acoustics with a parametric eq did not like the neutral sound as the resultant music is simply devoid of emotion and character that everyone favours in different degree. If you find certain equipment clinical, cold, hard or clean sounding, this particular unit has a frequency response that is closer to neutrality. However, a more neutral sounding system is better in discerning different sonic characteristics of any performance, thus, the application in the pro audio industry.

 

I've not heard tried DR150 but in the case of Grado SR80/225/325, they sound pretty close to neutrality IMHO.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Mackie

[dw1narso 0]

Hi Mackie,

 

I think there is a truth and falsity both on "If a can exhibits a flat response curve in between the frequency extremes eg 5Hz-30KHz, where a natural rolloff is apparent., technically speaking, the can should not sound colored as coloration is caused by a hump/notch (dB gain/cut) in certain frequency band. This simply contradicts the flat response curve theory."

 

In the speaker world, designer play with notch filter (electronically) to flaten the frequency response. They also lift up the response by playing with the box design (electroacoustic) including mass load, also to extend the response reach and to flaten frequency response.

 

The result could be flatter frequency response... but it does not guarantee that coloration would not be there... there is frequency shift and time delay between the "driver case" resonance and the driver resonance it self that produce coloration.

 

In other attempt, the designer can do many tweak to remove all the peaks and minimise the shift/delay, but at the end it can make the speaker sound dead. not lively at all... because either/or both that many musical information lost in the filter components or the driver movement is physically limited/affected by the "driver case"... It sound like "paling" the sound... but a pale colour is actually another colour right?

 

Outside the speaker, the attempt using parametric equalizer... in most of the time resulting the same thing as I mention above... that's why when you said you hear someone correcting the room acoustic using equalizer the music simply gone... it is becuase many valuable musical infromation robed by the equalizer it self...

 

I even believe that clinical, cold, hard or "cleaned" sound is actually another kind of coloration to the original music itself...

 

In ideal world, if we can make one driver truly flat (or very minimum peak/dip) by itself in an open baffle (means no casing is required, moving freely in the air)... yes... that is when the flat response will be the accurate representation of the music signal... as natural as music should be...

 

I myself could accept the unflat response if I can get better accuracy (and transparency) coming out... from the equipment that I hear...

 

Just my two cents...,

---

David

[Guest joi-ful]

^ Yup, I agree with David on this. IMHO, flatter frequency response probably means a more neutral sound, not necessarily more accurate (which is something I believe I'm not really in a position to comment on) That's is merely what I thought all along and of course, it may not be 100% truthful.

 

As a matter of fact, I'm still a newbie regarding music and that's what forums are for - to learn and guide each other along.

[Mackie 0]

 

 

In ideal world, if we can make one driver truly flat (or very minimum peak/dip) by itself in an open baffle (means no casing is required, moving freely in the air)... yes... that is when the flat response will be the accurate representation of the music signal... as natural as music should be...

 

I myself could accept the unflat response if I can get better accuracy (and transparency) coming out... from the equipment that I hear...

 

Just my two cents...,

---

David

 

I agree with all accounts that you've put forward, especially the bit on transducers' housing and its impact on the sound presentation. My earlier post was based on an ideal hypothetical example of what is actually a neutral and flat sound? Unless it is truly experienced in a controlled environment, the common perception may be far from the truth. I quoted your statement above as it's exactly what I wish to latch on and emphasize,ie, a flat response curve translates to a sound that is totally devoid of color and emotions and totally truthful/accurate to the source signal. Thus, the common terms that we use on a sound that is cold, hard, clean or clinical, may very well be one that is closer to neutrality albeit technically inaccurate. In summary, if a sound system is perfectly neutral (ideal, hypothetical), it will be accurate, at least to the source which goes all the way upstream to the medium's (CD/LP) end product.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Mackie

[dw1narso 0]

Hi Guys,

 

I would like to share my experience on searching my new earphone/headphone on Tuesday (Aug 22) night on Stereo Electronic. (Aron... if you read this post... thanks for your staffs courtesy and friendliness... I read somewhere in this forum that some members asking you for better service... and I can share to others that whatever Aron takes, I experience only a good night on Stereo... kudos to them...)

 

I have one night and one day for a training in Singapore... so I use the chance to go to Stereo at that night. I managed to spend one hour at the store.

 

I bring my notebook HP Compaq nc6220. Before, at home, I carefully compare the output part of this notebook with my home system (Meracus Tanto CD player with AD827 output stage, which originally from the manufacturer's come with Class A biasing on the opamp and temperature controlled clock, a serious player >>> Eichmann Express 6 interconnect >>> Going to PINT with OPA2107 gain stage and OPA2604 virtual grounding; simplified without charger component; point-to-point wiring; no LED pilot lamp; oversized PS caps, bypassed with 100n caps everywhere; 1.5uF WIMA MKP DC blocking cap for L/R channel; no L1 and C3 at all. Amazingly this notebook phone out sound so close to my system which still win a bit on smoothness, a bit more detail and involvement compare to the notebook. But my notebook is a bit sweeter and has more impact than my system (maybe because of opa2107/2604 combination... both famous to have low impact sound).

 

The songs I use to compare: (I play only parts that I'm familiar and particular to listen to sweet songs, complex passage, good and detailed treble, instrument sound like piano & trumpet & sax, attack, male and female vocal, base frequency, etc.)

 

CaiQin - Golden Songs: track 1; 2; 3, 4

Counting Crow - Films About Ghosts: Angels of The Silences; Big Yellow Taxi; Anna Begins

Jennifer Warnes - The Hunter: Lights Of Lousianne; The Hunter; I Can't Hide

ColdPlay - A Rush of Blood..: In My Place

FourPlay - The Best: Chant; Track 12.. forget the title... Phil Collins sings the song

John Williams - Greatest Hits 1969-1999: Jaws, Saving Private Ryan, JFK, Olympic Contennial

Mark Isham - Blue Sun: Barcelona, That Beautiful Sadness

Pat Metheny - We Live Here: Here To Stay, The Girls Next Door

STING - The Best: If You Love Somebody Set Them Free

Alison Krauss - Forget About It: Forget About It, Dreaming My Dreams With You

 

So I have a set of songs with their own greatness and weakness to be reproduced through the phones that I compare.

 

I listen to:

- my own Grado SR60 as my reference

- Audio Technica ATH CK7

- Westone UM1

- Westone UM2

- GoldRing DR150 with standard QED cord

- Grado SR225

 

So this is my finding:

 

ATH CK7

-------

Mid is a bit clearer than SR60. Base sound similar with SR60 but SR60 goes lower. High is ear bleeder especially on rock. Definitely a cold sounding earphone. I can understand why it is a complement to warm sounding Creative portable player like Muvo series. I spend only for a while with this phone... cannot stand long enough...

 

It is impossible to use it on my notebook and listen to it for a long time.

 

CK7 is also less efficient or need more drive than SR60; I have to increase the volume everytime after listening to SR60.

 

Westone UM1 & UM2

----------------

Surprisingly UM1's character is similar to SR60 but with flatter sounding (not frequency flat) and not as involving as SR60. Mid is cleaner than SR60, but it is probably because in most parts it sound thinner (in all frequency region) compared to SR60. Less balanced compared to SR60. To get a bit the body of the sound, I can increase the volume... but it makes it sound even less balanced and more forward... even starting to harsh... which is not good for rock songs.

 

I read comment on this forum and also the comment from the Stereo staff that UM2 is UM1 with better sounding on the base and more dynamic.... Then my finding is... UM2 is totally different animal...(read: higher race :-)... I'm racist about the sound... :-))

 

UM2 is more efficient (easier to drive... I have to lower the volume everytime I use it), even compared to SR60. OTOH UM2 sounds good on low volume or on high volume... (UM1 bad on high volume)

 

Everything sound bold, powerfull and muscullar (not thick, but) on UM2. It is a much "better" version of SR60. Piano sound very good on UM2... I can hear it reproduce the wood sound hitting the piano string... (sorry... I don't know how to call that part on the piano)

 

UM1 might only be good for lively player (read: colored player) otherwise it will sound flat. UM2 will make a player that sound a thin to have more body on the sound...

 

I never hear Shure or ER or UE and don't have a chance to hear them. But anybody who want a really portable earphone, I believe, UM2 is one of the best you can have. If I personally to take earphone... I would not take UM1 and save straight to get UM2. Both do not compared at all...

 

I read somewhere that for inner-ear- or ear-phone to compete with headphone, it won't be cheap. Then I admit that it is true.... SR60 give a better value than UM1, and SR60 can be bettered by UM2 but with a steep price too...

 

For it's price, although it is really designed to be portable, I doubt that somebody use UM2 with cheap portable player.. and I ever more doubt that there is portable player (with MP3, even with 320Kbps CBR) can send enough musical information details to the UM2... (I never hear FLAC on those protable... is it good?)

 

 

Goldring DR150

--------------

To my surprise.... I'm just spending a while with this headphone. It is not because it sound different than Grado.... My surprise is it's treble/high region do not sound natural at all... too thin...

 

Why I can say that? because I have my 'humble' reference speaker Dynaudio Audience 40, which sound similar to SR60, especially on treble/high region. Although cannot compare on the detail and sweetness to my friends systems (with Merlin VSM, which using the Dyn tweeter too; with Lowther full range speaker; with bunch of tube amps), at least I know that my Dyn sounds "correct". (I know that Dyn Aud 40 sound a bit lifted on the high freq.) The treble has the body. Not thin like DR150.

 

DR150 is definitely not above SR60/SR80. DR150 and SR80 are on the same level. (I myself think SR80 is on the same level as SR60, but with a bit better base and clearer sound, which is also because it use open bowl pad while SR60 use pad with no hole). Somebody might like it, but not me. And if the cable must be replaced... it will add another cost to the phone.

 

SR225

-----

A different animal (with higher race too....) compared to SR60. It produce a lot more detail. More impact and attack. But it also sound distant and more relax than SR60 (though on the high region it can sound less friendly than SR60).

 

It is more detail than UM2. But at the same time not as bold as UM2. It does not have the impact of UM2. If SR225 sounds "natural", which I think so..., then it means that UM2 is actually colored; though in a good way (my SR60 is also colored in a good way compared to SR225).

 

The other difference of SR225 to UM2, is SR225 sound sound like all the musician play song distant outside of my ear; UM2 sound like all the musician play outside but close in my ear, While SR60, all the musician play inside my ear.

 

SR225 is less efficient or need more drive than SR60. On some songs, like "The Hunter", I have to maximize

all the volume on my notebook (both master volume control and the "Wave" volume control). And it sometimes still sound too low (on "Jaws" soundtrack I cannot hear the opening part...).... Then I start to realise... how good my notebook amp actually... it does not distort at all on max volume...

 

 

SR60

----

To my surprise.... after comparing to SR225.... I would say that there is advantage of this phone even over SR225.... Because it sound "closer" to the ear... it is more "involved" with the user... even when compared to SR225. It is like the musician play for my ear. It is sweeter than SR225. It is also less forgiving than SR225.

 

It would not a proper analogy but it can be something like this: you know a beauty woman with a good voice. When she talks in a distant from you... you can admire her completely; her voice will be clearer too. Compare it to when she talk right on your ear; her voice most likely will not be clearer and will be heavier too, but at the same time it would be more intimate to you... :-)

 

For it's price it is a phone with a super value...

 

----

 

So after spending about one hour comparing them... which one that I buy? :-)

 

Bad news: cannot decide yet... and the store is closing... but value wise...I'm leaning toward SR225...

 

Too bad I cannot audition Alessandro MS2... to compare to SR225, they are out of stock.... including the demo

 

unit...

 

so here come the good news for you all: Stereo staff leak an information about Alessandro.... since for the next batch Stereo order more stock units, they might probably get cheaper cost price... which in turn allow them to offer MS2 with cheaper price... :-)

 

... the staff said will be closer to $400 then previously to $500... :-)

 

I'll be waiting for the Allesandro MS2... compared to SR225...

 

After knowing the competition, I must say that I'm really pleased with SR60 for potable use. Suddenly I'm not in urged to get a new phone now... But if I get SR225, it would be for my reference at home only...

 

Cheers,

---

David

 

[dw1narso 0]

Surprise, surprise.... unplanned at all, but my training finished one hour earlier and I still have time rush to Jaben... I will have one hour on Jaben

 

Uncle Wilson is really nice as all the story spread about him in this forum... He is a kind of person that love his customers... because he loves them and not because they bought something from him...

 

With the same notebook and songs, I audition the following phones:

 

Allesandro MS2

--------------

They sound close to SR225... if my memory is correct... (I read that human memory can only hold details and characteristics of sound for 15 minutes... :-))

 

On the high freq. seems to be easier than SR225... Impact seems less than SR225...

 

Strangely, I think I hear a fairly bit thickness on some CaiQin voices... (My ear is sensitive to overly resonated mezzo soprano - contralto female voice)... that I do not hear on SR225... I don't know which one is correct... the MS2 or the SR225

 

MS2 is definitely not using the same driver as SR225... it is a lot more efficient than SR225... MS2 is about the same efficient as SR60

 

Beyerdynamic DT880

------------------

Sound similar to Allesandro MS2.... but it is not in the same class as MS2.... less detailed than MS2...

 

Beyerdynamic DT990

------------------

This one is definitely in the same level as MS2.... even sound very close... It is easier to ear than MS2... about the same impact... and without the resonated voice I mention MS2...

 

It is a hair more detailed than MS2... (very difficult to disguise but...)

 

Though not as difficult as SR225 to drive... I must put almost max all the volume up to drive this phone... Once again... surprising... my notebook can drive 250 ohms phone...

 

 

Beyerdynamic DT770

------------------

Not in the same class at all compared to other Beyer above and MS2... Maybe because I'm so used to listen to open phone... I think it does not sound natural... even worse it is colored on tenor male voice (Counting Crow: Big Yellow Taxi)...

 

Alessandro MS1

--------------

It sound a bit distant from ear than SR60 but not as distant as MS2/DT880/DT990 (all three in the same distant level)

 

It is good phone too but not in the same level as MS2/DT880/DT990... It sounds different... rightly between SR60 and DT880

 

I think it is even have better value compared to SR60...

 

-----------------

 

So if I'm allowed to rank all the phones that I hear I will list them as: the lower to better quality... at least to my ear...

 

UM1

SR60

MS1

DT880

UM2

SR225/MS2/DT990 (all three are in the same level)

 

Sorry I cannot include CK7, DR150 and DT770 on the list.... they are not for my ear...

 

Actually in Jaben... I do not always listening to the phones.... It is more fun to talk to friendly Uncle Wilson than to listen to the music... :-) I learn many things from him... :-) just in one visit...

 

No choice... I have to save more to increase my budget to get the better phone... (I previously hope DR150 is as good as SR225... or at least close... but seems to be wrong...)

 

Which phone I would consider then? The last four from my list above: UM2/SR225/MS2/DT990

 

- UM2 for it's impact and intimacy... (all other three cannot beat it in this regard)

- SR225 for the best value being the cheapest form all four

- MS2 and DT990 for their overall quality... but lean toward DT990 for it's 250ohms impedance... (easier to drive with tube amp...)

 

That's all folks..:-)

 

---

David