SACDP to pair with creek(obh11+obh2) + senn hd600

[Charismatic 0]

Good Afternoon.

 

I bought a old luxman int amp + old wharfedale spk to pair up with my marantz cd5000. It's another headache, placement of spks, room acoustic...and the setup since like don't do well in complex music(a lot of instrument one), in fact is BAD. However, it's doing OK with jazz, vocal, reggie, simple music(less instrument), which is what i needed. It do quite well with live vocals from tuner, that comes as a surprise.

 

With that, i m relegating the cd5000 to spk setup and i have no Source for the hp amp and hp setup now.

 

Sincerely, I would like to seek help from fellow forumer, esp members with vast experience in system matching/pairing to recommend a SACDP(2 ch or multi-ch also can) with equivalent for my hp setup. My budget can never >$3000 and preferably the budget can contain a pair of IC also and the brand of SACDP is not an issue.

 

The recommendation should be, in no order of preference,

 

1) the pros and cons of the recommended SACDP to pair with my hp setup.

2) the resale value of the recommended SACDP.

3) the musciality of the SACDP(both sacd and redbook), vocal, allrounder, handle complex music well,etc

4) the SACDP can be used in what sort of spk setup, i.e. to pair with what amp & spk should it is to be used a spk setup.

5) The sonic of the SACDP, sound stage, image, high, low,...all the jargons...etc.

6) What i need to change to the hp amp and hp should i get the recommended SACDP and want an even better sacdp-hpamp-hp setup

7) the IC, yes it's vital also, esp for hp setup.

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Rameish 0]

My take on this is:

 

1) It's not an SACD issue.

2) There is no synergy between your current CDP (warm), HP amp (warm) and Senn HD-600 (also warm and lush).

3) You can do several things but the question is: Do you find a lack of dynamics in your system? That is your foot is not taping to the music and you mind wanders about thinking about other things while you hear (but not listen) to music.

 

If you answered yes to any of the above, I may be able to help you recommending a more detailed CDP, amp and headphone.

 

BTW I'm assuming the CD5000 sounds similar to the CD6000 OSE.

[Mackie 0]

Charismatic:

 

Looking through your request, it's quite a tall order as system building is based on one's musical taste, sonic preference, room size and lots of research/auditioning. No system can excel in all kinds of music and in this respect, I would appreciate if U can start by telling us your preferred repertoire.

 

Next area in question is, do U listen more to headphone or speakers? U seem to have quite a large budget ($3000?) and with due respect, balance and synergy is vital to system building. I recommend an overhaul of both systems so that U can achieve a sonic balance and pleasure at the same time.

 

If U're considering a multi-channel SACDP, this feature is redundant for headphone setup. Not may SACDPs fare well in both SACD and redbook playback and those that do cost lots of money. If U wish to seek a balance in the 2 systems and SACDP is a must-buy, I would place it in the speakers system. However, your old luxman amp and wharfedale speakers are likely to be replaced with more contemporary gears that can handle the much wider bandwidth of SACDs.

 

If U listen more to cans, has low priority for the speakers setup and SACDP is a must-have, I'm afraid the current headamp may not be able to do justice. Why not get a better cdp with 24/96 or 24/192 oversampling? The Consonance Opera 2.2 (24/192) cost around $1750 (depending on wood or steel chassis cover) and has tube driven output. Accolades aside, the tube signature should give U warm vocals and a more analogue sound. Marantz CD17MkIII ($1099) is also another lovely player, warm and dynamic at the same time. Marantz SA8260 is an economical SACD/redbook player (around $1250) which handles SACDs pretty well but perhaps less so in redbook playback relative to CD17III (subject to taste of course). At around the $2000 mark, there's the awsome looking Shanling cdps/SACDPs (tube output too).

 

Beyond this, I can no longer be of help until choices are narrowed down to a few. Afterall, music and sound is YMMV....personal.

[Rameish 0]

Mackie,

 

Shanling CDP/SACDP seems to have some reliability issues. I'll put a pause button on that one for now at least.

 

Charismatic,

Added to that SACD software (thought better than before) is still limited. I would go for a better redbook player. Roughly split your S$3K budget into 3 parts. And go from there.

 

If your 3K is for your headphone setup, I suggest you bring your Creek & CDP to my place and give the Corda and Grado (which I sell a listen). The Beyer DT-880 also corrects many of the flaws found in the Senn HD-600.

 

The only real way to know is to listen for yourself - otherwise it's a hit and miss approach.

 

If you don't wish to spend too much on a new HP Amp then go for the X-Cans but that only solves part of the HD-600 veiled sound.

 

You might want to send Tee a PM as he has the Shanling and just ordered a Grado RS-2 and Corda HA-1 from me yesterday. BTW he has the Beyer DT-880 as well as a Grado RA-1.

 

Your Call, Have Fun.

 

 

[Charismatic 0]

My take on this is:

 

1) It's not an SACD issue.

2) There is no synergy between your current CDP (warm), HP amp (warm) and Senn HD-600 (also warm and lush).

3) You can do several things but the question is: Do you find a lack of dynamics in your system? That is your foot is not taping to the music and you mind wanders about thinking about other things while you hear (but not listen) to music.

 

If you answered yes to any of the above, I may be able to help you recommending a more detailed CDP, amp and headphone.

 

BTW I'm assuming the CD5000 sounds similar to the CD6000 OSE.

1) need SACD. Police SACD is selling $23.99 at Sembawang and it may be cheaper at some cd shop in chinatown. Have to go and check things out again.

 

2) Feel that the creek and senn are under-achieved.

 

3) not sure. depends on the type of music. sometime the thinking may preoccupy me regardless of the music. That is another issue..non-audio of course.

 

would still prefer a SACDP. Thanks for the offering, hear from the rest of the forumer u r a nice guy . May look for u for amp once i settle the source thing.

 

Yes they sound similar, they have the Marantz sound(i m not joking).

 

Thanks once again.

[Charismatic 0]

Charismatic:

 

Looking through your request, it's quite a tall order as system building is based on one's musical taste, sonic preference, room size and lots of research/auditioning.  No system can excel in all kinds of music and in this respect, I would appreciate if U can start by telling us your preferred repertoire. 

 

Next area in question is, do U listen more to headphone or speakers?  U seem to have quite a large budget ($3000?) and with due respect, balance and synergy is vital to system building.  I recommend an overhaul of both systems so that U can achieve a sonic balance and pleasure at the same time.

 

If U're considering a multi-channel SACDP, this feature is redundant for headphone setup.  Not may SACDPs fare well in both SACD and redbook playback and those that do cost lots of money.  If U wish to seek a balance in the 2 systems and SACDP is a must-buy, I would place it in the speakers system.  However, your old luxman amp and wharfedale speakers are likely to be replaced with more contemporary gears that can handle the much wider bandwidth of SACDs.

 

If U listen more to cans, has low priority for the speakers setup and SACDP is a must-have, I'm afraid the current headamp may not be able to do justice.  Why not get a better cdp with 24/96 or 24/192 oversampling?  The Consonance Opera 2.2 (24/192) cost around $1750 (depending on wood or steel chassis cover) and has tube driven output.  Accolades aside, the tube signature should give U warm vocals and a more analogue sound.  Marantz CD17MkIII ($1099) is also another lovely player, warm and dynamic at the same time.  Marantz SA8260 is an economical SACD/redbook player (around $1250) which handles SACDs pretty well but perhaps less so in redbook playback relative to CD17III (subject to taste of course).  At around the $2000 mark, there's the awsome looking Shanling cdps/SACDPs (tube output too).

 

Beyond this, I can no longer be of help until choices are narrowed down to a few.  Afterall, music and sound is YMMV....personal.

Mr Mackie,

 

thank for u precious time to reply to my query. .

 

Prefer neutral, it should sound as it's intended at least from the source(SACD or CD). No more and no less. If the source is a crappy recording, then it is crappy, and vice versa.

 

listen more to hp. Not able to expand on spk setup as prohibited by circumstances. $3000 is guideline, not a forced budget where every stated cents has to be spent, i have to stop somewhere. Overhaul of both? i will got a BIG headache, no lah don't want lah.

 

 

i would give spk setup a pass.

 

 

Pls eleborate as to why the current hp amp may be insufficient, thks.

would still prefer a SACDP that also do well in Redbook. Do u know anyone(not the dealer) that have marantz SA17 or SA14 where i can've audition?

 

What is YMMV?

 

 

[Charismatic 0]

Mackie,

 

Shanling CDP/SACDP seems to have some reliability issues. I'll put a pause button on that one for now at least.

 

Charismatic,

Added to that SACD software (thought better than before) is still limited. I would go for a better redbook player. Roughly split your S$3K budget into 3 parts. And go from there.

 

If your 3K is for your headphone setup, I suggest you bring your Creek & CDP to my place and give the Corda and Grado (which I sell a listen).  The Beyer DT-880 also corrects many of the flaws found in the Senn HD-600.

 

The only real way to know is to listen for yourself - otherwise it's a hit and miss approach.

 

If you don't wish to spend too much on a new HP Amp then go for the X-Cans but that only solves part of the HD-600 veiled sound.

 

You might want to send Tee a PM as he has the Shanling and just ordered a Grado RS-2 and Corda HA-1 from me yesterday. BTW he has the Beyer DT-880 as well as a Grado RA-1.

 

Your Call, Have Fun.

Thanks again Rameish,

 

have to settle the source first. But i m a cans guy, so do worry, u will have business .

 

And yes, enjoy the music.

[tee 0]

Hi Charismatic,

 

I own a hybrid SACD/DVD-Audio player (of course no where near XA777) but i would suggest that at this moment the most cost effective way of enjoying music is still thru' CD playing, where if your budget allows, go for the XRCD format (esp the latest XRCD-24bit) to get the most out of quality stereophonic presentation. Most SACDs are on old prints using DSD Mastering, not recorded directly using Sony DSD system. Hence, you don't always get the full dynamics, details and hi frequency headrooms that SACD technology promises.

 

I have just tried the Police Synchronicity SACD which was remastered in Poland (December 2002). It does not sound the way that i would expect, esp on track 7 (Every Breath You Take). It sounded quite dry actually. So pls don't jump onto the bandwagon (although the XA777 is now listed as Class A+ in Stereophile) until the manufacturers have achieved significant economies of scale and scope in producing new recordings. Of course, when you listen to genuine original DSD recordings (such as Autumn in Seattle by Tsuyoshi Yamamoto and Red Rose Music by Mark Levinson), you will be thrilled by the richness and low floor noise level of the music it presents, but such opportunity is still quite rare and expensive to attain.

 

Back to CD player, i have been using the Shangling CD-T100 for about 8 months. It was a well run-in set bought from Shanghai, no reliability or quality issues so far. I have compared it with other CD players in the S$5k range and it sounds comparable with very warm, slightly laid back tonal quality plus very good presentation of details. Although its speed would not be exactly as fast as those with full transistors running, but i have North Star Design M192 DAC to act as accelerator if need be. Both sets should set you back by about S$2k if you get them secondhand (which is my regular value proposition as newbie, except for headphones). Try playing Ted Gioia Trio's "the end of the open road" album (Brainbridge label)and you will be amazed by how good a normal CD can sound if careful attention is paid to its recording.

 

Now the balance S$1k could be allocated for a Grado RA-1 (S$600+) or Corda HA-1 (S$500+) for headamp and Beyerdynamic DT880 ($400+) or Grado RS-335 (S$500+) cans. Ramiesh can provide u with more accuracy in the prices.

 

Grado amp drives the music with ease, natural sounding with nice touch esp for high frequency range while giving enough emphasis to bass, just like the krells in full speaker amp set up. HA-1 exhibits similar characteristics but provides slightly more natural sounding owing to the crossfeed feature. It represents a bit more of the Audiolab-amp quality of the older days, ie. transparent, neutral and straightforward.

 

For DT 880, it's a good bargain which has better transparency and stronger bass compared with HD600 and HD200 (which i still like its closed-circumaural design for my overseas use in outdoor / noiser environments but it lacks the headrooms that come with sopranos singing). But the RS-335 will give you slightly warmer feeling of the music you listen to although it does not compromise on the details and therefore show up any lacking in the sources. As it is a very good match for RA-1, i have just committed to acquiring a RS-2 (which is one grade above RS-335) in the coming shipment.

 

Btw, i have not tried using OBH-11 with either of the cans before, so i can't really comment on their compatibility. Believe Ramiesh has tried that previously.

 

When i choose interconnects, i view them similar to spices in the food we take. It helps to tone up or down the sonic characteristic of the system. But pls use it with care and system matching is key to realising a balance soundfield. One recommendation is to look for AudioTruth cables (now is back to old name AudioQuest i think) which offer both copper and silver interconnects at reasonable prices, esp from secondhand market. You may have to do some experiments to get the best matching for your system. I have tried almost the full range (of the older models like Diamond, Lapis, Emerald.....) and i think Lapis give quite a balanced match to the Shangling/NSD duo. Try getting it at S$150-180 from existing owner(s) who has help running-in for you.

 

And one last bit, a good recording will always give endless joy to listening over and over again. So pls select your softwares carefully. Enjoy !!

 

 

[tee 0]

just a minor correction : it should be Grado RS-325, not RS-335.

[ablaze 0]

actually its the SR-325

[tee 0]

yes, thank ablaze, i got it mixed up with RS-2 and my eyesight hasn't been too good lately, due to old age...but my hearing and hence the verdicts on the gadgets are still in tact and valid.

 

btw, there is a concert by Jeremy Monteiro NYC Trio coming up on June 18 & 19. It will feature a rare jazz artist and legend Toots Thielemans whose mastery skill in harmonica is something to look forward to, as Quincy Jones once said : "Toots goes for the heart and makes you cry"

[Mackie 0]

Mackie,

 

Pls eleborate as to why the current hp amp may be insufficient, thks.

would still prefer a SACDP that also do well in Redbook.  Do u know anyone(not the dealer) that have marantz SA17 or SA14 where i can've audition?

 

What is YMMV?

Charismatic: Before jumping onto the backwagon of SACDs, IMO, I've not heard an economical (doesn't mean cheap) setup that maximises the benefits of both SACD/CD redbook playback to the max except for a super high-end Accuphase SACD player belonging to a friend. In actual fact, the contest is still on as to which would be the future industry standard..... SACD or DVD-A.

 

The Marantz players U'd mentioned are good choices and with that kinda costs, I'm sure dealers will be more than happy to let U audition them. Why the apprehension to deal with them?

 

As discussed in an earlier thread, I believe in synergy and balance when one undertakes an upgrading course. If U intend to buy a source costing around $2000 and SACDs are your priority that carry a much wider bandwith than conventional cds, U'll need more analytical gears to maximize the benefits. Therefore, I recommend an upgrade in the headamp and cans. I used to own a HD600/X-cans setup and prefer this over the OBH11.

 

To achieve optimal sound improvement/musicality, I recommend you should spread your budget across the current setup eg. SACD player, Corda headamp and DT880 (Rameish has the latter 2 products for audition). This would conform to a better balance than a sole upgrade to a high end source.

 

Remember, upping the ante of any single gear in the audio chain gives U deeper perspective of the sound; both strength and weakness will be revealed. Of course, U can take it step by step to learn from experience. In the meantime, don't try to max out your budget on the source and leave some for possible contingent upgrades of the headamp/cans.

 

For auditions, bring along your cans and headamp to ensure what U hear in the showrooms is what U will get after purchase. We can discuss on the choice of interconnect after U've decided on the choice of the source.

 

I'm afraid all accessories and gears carry a certain degree of sonic signature. A general "neutral" requirement will get U nowhere. As a gauge, what kinda music do U listen to? If there were to be a signature, what would U prefer it to be.....warmer or analytical, forward or laid back, smoother or dynamic etc?

 

One has to understand what kinda sound he likes and heads towards that direction to avoid going in circles trying products based on magazine reviews. This understanding also helps to pare off the upgrade bugs.....only by achieving contentment can one starts to enjoy the music and not the gears.

 

For a start, bring your cans/headamp/cd and sacd to KEC for a test of the Marantz SA8260 (SACD capable) and CD17MkIII. This will help U to find an early indication if the course of SACD is worth pursuing. If affirmative, use a good cdp as a reference in this search and gauge if the premium cost of SACD player offers good value for money.

 

My budget allocation in this scenario: $1500 on cdp, $1000 on Corda, <$500 on DT880, $200 on interconnect. Returns from the sale of your current OBH1 and HD600 will reduce this outlay.

 

My choice: Marantz CD17MkIII/Exposure 2010/Rega Planet 2000; Corda HA-2; Beyer DT880; Kimber Silver Streak interconnect (owing this and not a firm suggestion).

 

YMMV means Your Mileage May Vary.

 

Btw, if U have interest in the DT880, I'm conducting a power buy. PM me for the price.

Edited May 6, 2003 by Mackie

[ablaze 0]

hey Mackie, what about the Philips 963A. supposedly its fantastic SACD player, as well as an excellent redbook player. remember that "power buy" by area51?

[Mackie 0]

Yes, heard of that player but never auditioned it personally. I can only go so far and recommend a product if I'm familiar with it. The enquirer (Charismatic) has to gather more options from a larger pool and via his own research.

 

Btw, product experience is not my forte as I seldom hang out at Adelphi or listen to fellow forumers' system.

[ablaze 0]

is the player available locally btw? after area51 got banned, I haven't heard about the player..