Any DAP which has a true line out?

[zonalblitz_audio 0]

However, the line-out from iPods still allows alterations made to the EQ.

Not a 'true' line-out anymore.

 

[Jeremy 0]

thats is the purpose... we wanna bypass the sucky bass and treble processor inside..

 

By bypassing all the features of the DAP, will the sound be nice ?

I thought the equaliser is supposed to help u tweak the sound that suit you since all phones give different characteristic sound.

 

I feel its really a waste of money buying a DAP but not using its features.

[absolut 0]

What they're saying is that the EQ work can be done better using an external device.

[replay 0]

Isn't it gonna be costly if he buys everything to try? Unless someone brings down everything he needs to SE or Jaben for him to audition.. ie. different players, different amps.

[Jeremy 0]

What they're saying is that the EQ work can be done better using an external device.

 

But I doubt portable amp come with SRS, EQ, WOW feature. So far wat I come across is only bass boost control. Is that enough ?

 

Anyway, still waiting for my Super Macro IV to match my H340. My headphone is H280. Luckily, my H340 is not a true line out.....

 

 

[pchong 0]

Alsolutely nothing. When you plug in your earphone jack into line out socket you should hear somthing (usualy the volume will be lower then at you normal setting of your headphone out). If the EQ settings and volume control do no affect what you hear when your earphone is plugged into the line out then the chances are it's a true line out (ie doesnt go thru the final amplification and volume pot). Hope this helps.

 

 

Hmm, sounds right, if I may extrapolate from regular hifi, you want the DAP to do the voltage amplification (like a preamp), but want to bypass the headphone poweramp. Logical. But isn't EQ and volume control typically applied to the voltage gain preamp?

 

Can we totally eliminate the preamp stage within the DAP?

 

For the purist, a true line out would be one where the line out is tapped directly from the outputs of the DA chips. Does this kind of player exist? In a typical hifi CD player, is this how it is implemented? Or is there a voltage gain stage within the CD player?

 

Without opening up the DAP (and even if one opens it up), how to tell if the socket marked line out is true line out, or what?

 

In my 30G Zen Vision (not the V, but the larger player with 640x480 screen), there is a video line out socket, for plugging the device to a TV's line in. I know the socket is meant for L+R+video, but plugging in a regular 1/8" plug will allow connection to just the audio part. If I plug my headphones in, there is no volume control or EQ, and the sound I get is about max of the volume via the headphone socket. Also, this may be psycological, but I think I hear more instrument separation via the line out. So is the Zen Vision's line out a true one or fake?

 

My understanding of the Red Wine mods on the ipod, is that they tap the analog outputs directly from the DAC...anyone can verify? If this is true, it will explain why this is probably the best sound possible from a DAP, especially in lossless mode.

Edited September 21, 2006 by pchong

[scanfiend 0]

Hmm, sounds right, if I may extrapolate from regular hifi, you want the DAP to do the voltage amplification (like a preamp), but want to bypass the headphone poweramp. Logical. But isn't EQ and volume control typically applied to the voltage gain preamp?

 

Can we totally eliminate the preamp stage within the DAP?

 

For the purist, a true line out would be one where the line out is tapped directly from the outputs of the DA chips. Does this kind of player exist? In a typical hifi CD player, is this how it is implemented? Or is there a voltage gain stage within the CD player?

 

Without opening up the DAP (and even if one opens it up), how to tell if the socket marked line out is true line out, or what?

 

In my 30G Zen Vision (not the V, but the larger player with 640x480 screen), there is a video line out socket, for plugging the device to a TV's line in. I know the socket is meant for L+R+video, but plugging in a regular 1/8" plug will allow connection to just the audio part. If I plug my headphones in, there is no volume control or EQ, and the sound I get is about max of the volume via the headphone socket. Also, this may be psycological, but I think I hear more instrument separation via the line out. So is the Zen Vision's line out a true one or fake?

 

My understanding of the Red Wine mods on the ipod, is that they tap the analog outputs directly from the DAC...anyone can verify? If this is true, it will explain why this is probably the best sound possible from a DAP, especially in lossless mode.

 

 

Nicely put, pchong. I do not think that any consumer DAP's today have a true line-out. They all implement some kind of "audio out" rather than a true line-out signal. They merely blast out the audio and disable the volume adjustment on the DAP, forcing you to adjust the volume via the connected amp, or powered speakers.

 

Strictly speaking, a true line-out is an un-amped signal, bypassing any amplification ciruitry that may induce distortion. The fact that you can hear very loud music from the Creative "AV Out" jack would imply some kind of amplification has taken place.

 

Now, whether this signal is any "cleaner" than from the headphone out is a matter of conjecture. Due to the max volume, I personally found it too hard to listen to it without using some fairly inefficient phones, like the 250ohm Beyer DT990 for example - which incidentally, sounded pretty good

 

Regarding the Red Wine mod, if you look at their site, it involves soldering a bypass of some sort on the PCB itself, presumably directly from the DAC circuitry. A fairly major hack, if you ask me

[Jeremy 0]

 

It seems like he can jump the gun to get a SM4(SGD$600+) without even knowing properly what an amp does, so he would probably have the cash to burn...

IMO, if you are happy with SRS/WOW/BBE, you would be much better off dumping the money somewhere else(better earphones/headphones+low cost DIY amp)...make sure you LIKE how an amp helps your DAP before dumping that much money on a device that is that expensive to be remotely usefull.

 

just so that you know, an amp boosts the signals from whatever is fed into it, and boosting SRS/WOW/BBE processed sound just means that the signal is processed once more unneccessarily, and more often than not, just serves to distort the sound.

 

 

But I view it differently. As wat u say boosting SRS/WOW/BBE might distort the sound in one way when using a portable amp but in another way, it can offer you more adjustment to fine tune the sound that you like......

 

The reason to buy this amp is to amplify my headphone ( 64 ohms ) so to get the maximum strength out of it. Currently, I need to turn volume on my DAP to quite high.

 

You will definitely get a better overall sound if you are using an portable amplifier to drive high impredence headphone for DAP.

 

Anyway, I never used a portable amp b4 & this is my first one.

Seem that u owned a Super Macro 3 V6. How is it ?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2006 by Jeremy

[pchong 0]

Nicely put, pchong. I do not think that any consumer DAP's today have a true line-out. They all implement some kind of "audio out" rather than a true line-out signal. They merely blast out the audio and disable the volume adjustment on the DAP, forcing you to adjust the volume via the connected amp, or powered speakers.

 

I am begining to think you are correct.

 

Strictly speaking, a true line-out is an un-amped signal, bypassing any amplification ciruitry that may induce distortion. The fact that you can hear very loud music from the Creative "AV Out" jack would imply some kind of amplification has taken place.

 

Now, whether this signal is any "cleaner" than from the headphone out is a matter of conjecture. Due to the max volume, I personally found it too hard to listen to it without using some fairly inefficient phones, like the 250ohm Beyer DT990 for example - which incidentally, sounded pretty good

 

Regarding the Red Wine mod, if you look at their site, it involves soldering a bypass of some sort on the PCB itself, presumably directly from the DAC circuitry. A fairly major hack, if you ask me

 

 

Actually, you are right...it says right here at the Red Wine ipod site http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod.html that they take the analog signal directly at the analog output of the DA chips. Wonder if it is possible to do the same on the Zen?

 

 

[scanfiend 0]

I am begining to think you are correct.

Actually, you are right...it says right here at the Red Wine ipod site http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod.html that they take the analog signal directly at the analog output of the DA chips. Wonder if it is possible to do the same on the Zen?

 

No way to tell for sure, unless some electronic whiz breaks apart the ZVM and take a look at the PCB Since my ZVM's warranty is ending soon, I do not mind volunteering my ZVM for experimentation (provided the experimenter demonstrate some level of competency in electronic engineering or such )

 

Never underestimate the quality of sound a true line-out signal can offer you. (sorry for sounding like a broken record). Like what I've mentioned in several threads, I connected the Govibe (a very competent portable amp) to my ancient PCDP, a Sony via optical/line-out, and the sounds coming into my AKG K601 is very, very, very good indeed With the audio-out type implementation of many DAP's, it takes some experimentation to get good sound if you want to use a portable amp, probably due to the difficulty of matching impedances.

[nakedtoes 0]

Yeah most PCDP and DAP 's EQ and bass boast sucks... they simply increase the LOW and lower the mid and high to make the bass more prominent..... Recently i also bring out my SonY D321 with truth line out connect to GO vibe and then to E5C... i tell myself i will not listen to MP3 again.. but am still thinking of getting a DAP with true line out to compare..