Forum Feedback 1

[loop_ 0]

I think many people have already made their thoughts clear by no longer participating in this forum, but since some of us still participate, I think this needs to be said...

 

Kindly put, this is poor policy-making, and is extremely overbearing. Let me list the reasons why.

 

1) It does not directly target those whom such a policy would want to target. I can only think of 2 ways in which this can abused. a - selling nonsense like porn, b - profiteering. In both cases, requiring a minimum post count and certain days of participation might reduce such occurances, but that would only be incidental. Three hypotheticals:

 

A - I could decide tomorrow to sell porn because I can get them in the UK, and that would be shameless profiteering, and well i'd fulfil the criteria.

 

B - A new member who bought a little dot II++ from Clemo decides to sell them. He makes a post. Abuse? you've got to be kidding me. But he would get a warning and later a ban.

 

C - Clemo regularly (increasingly less so) does MOs for LD stuff. I'm sure he has an arrangement with the dealer, and might even earn some small token sum from it. Arguably, he might be profiteering, or might be doing it from pure good will. Either way, is there really anything wrong with that?

 

The problem is that when you come up with a solution which might be more convenient for the mods, but draws a lowest common denominator in order to do so, then it's bad policy. In fact, it's not that difficult to manually scan for obviously unwanted ads, it's not like this is echoloft and you get more than 50 ads a day. If it's too difficult i could help you by just clicking the report button, just ask.

 

2) This might well be mainly a discussion forum, but it also provides a very useful function of allowing headfiers to buy and sell their unwanted gear, or to give good deals. Some people treasure this function more than others, because say, they just don't like to talk, but have good things to sell or money to spend. What you're doing is making this forum less valuable not only to them, but for those who like to have a good supply of used gear to consider buying.

 

3) You're not going to increase participation just by telling people they have to talk. Firstly the fact that this is patently absurd would discourage people from participating. I'm really tempted to just give up and move on as it is, but I remember the good old days where I got so much help and the moderating team was much more sensible.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, alot of people gain experience by actually buying and selling. Before I could come up with any half-decent post I first needed to make some really bad buys, and then sell them (lol), and really most of my first few posts started in the classifieds, not anywhere else. This requirement then prevents people from really just getting into the hobby first before being able to talk about it. It is not easy to come up with 50 constructive posts if you're completely new and want to sell something to start with. You might just get 50 'i'm trying hard' posts.

 

4) You will also decrease participation because some people come online to see what deals there are, and incidentally find discussion topics interesting and then talk. If the classifieds becomes some inward-looking thing, and doesn't welcome all those with good audio gear to sell, then it's going to be quieter, and people are going to become less curious, and come online less, and then talk less.

 

Basically, my complaint is that this policy does not target the people it seeks to, and will not create the effect which it intends to, but would instead just drive people away from this forum. I'm not saying that rules are not needed to create a healthy environment, but I think this is going a step in the wrong direction i.e. I see nothing wrong with the status quo.

 

I do hope the mods will change their minds, or if not, give me reasons more compelling than those I have put forward.

 

 

 

hansel

Edited March 31, 2007 by loop_

[Absolute0 0]

Hi hansel, thank you for your feedback, and more so, the time and effort taken to come up with such a detailed feedback at that.

 

A point of note is that this policy is not unique to our forum, but has been implemented on many others, including Head-fi. That is not to say we are following suit for the sake of following suit. You may think this is "poor policy-making, and is extremely overbearing" but policies exist for a reason, and that reason is not to make everyone happy. And contrary to your belief, I don't see how this is "more convenient for the mods" when we could have just sat there and done nothing, but now have to manually scan and delete threads.

 

This policy is mainly aimed at reducing the number of FS threads posted by certain members who have registered solely for the sake of selling items/services to make a profit. We have noticed an increasing number of such members in recent months, which is the main motivation behind such a move. This should not affect most of our members who will continue to have access to the Classifieds.

 

I do not wish to turn this into a debate, but I will take you up on some points. With regards to Clemo and his MOs, he is doing a service to our members, and IF he does indeed profit from the process, the onus is on him to make this clear and for the MO participants to decide if he deserves it. In the least, he does participate in the main forums and post about LD products occasionally, which makes him a constructive poster worthy of the privilege of posting in the Classifieds.

 

We are not against profiteering per se, but we do not want to encourage participation in the forum that solely feeds off monetary rewards. I agree wholeheartedly with you that the Classifieds "provides a very useful function of allowing headfiers to buy and sell their unwanted gear, or to give good deals", but we feel that this is a privilege that should be earned.

To reiterate my point, 50 constructive posts is not that difficult to make. Our new members can start by asking questions or for recommendations, or just posting simple impressions of their gear, or even share the joy of their latest CD purchase. I, for one, think that ruminating and querying is a better way to start this hobby and gain experience, compared to buying and selling. That should come in a bit later, and 50 posts might be a good benchmark for our members.

 

Finally, there are still an abundance of good deals around, which should not stop our members from logging in to check on them from time to time. I trust that members that fulfil the criteria still make up the majority of our active population, and it wouldn't take long for those who haven't to join the club if they make an effort.

 

Give this policy some time, and we'll see if it's driving away members, or not. Now, it's all just pointless talk.

 

We value feedback, and would be happy to hear any of your thoughts.

[Rameish 0]

Loop,

 

Come up with a better way to prevent people from joining for the sole pupose of selling somthing and I'll implement it. This measure that we are taking is in fact good for the headphone community, it's painfull yes but reasonable. Please do remember some forums even have a auto mod preview for x no. of posts for all new members.

[loop_ 0]

The better way is to look at it from a case by case basis.

 

There are cases such as this http://www.sgheadphones.net/index.php?showtopic=7354, which is clearly not profiteering, whereas Gerald's shipping service probably is.

 

On one level I have nothing against profiteering so long as it is or can be related to audio stuff, but if the mods are against this my main gripe is the no-nonsense less than 50 posts which is frankly only needed if you have an enormous post count in the classifieds and cannot manually manage it. If you can, then looking at each case might be more useful. the 50 posts thing can be a factor allowing one to make a judgement on whether this is a clear case of profiteering or not, but I don't think it should the be all and end all

[Absolute0 0]

Hansel, I see that you mean well, and I believe you are not deliberately trying to stir a hornet's nest. But I think we'll just leave things be for a while and see how it goes.

 

We need to be fair in our policies, and deciding which new member joined solely for profiteering or not on a case-by-case basis, based on our subjective judgement, will just open another can of worms.

 

Just see the 50 posts as a way to earn the privilege to post in the Classifieds.

[loop_ 0]

fair enough. I was not planning to reply but since I was asked to come up with something I thought better...

[Rameish 0]

We are always open to suggestions loop. Thanks for your feedback.

[aegisofrime 0]

You claim the new rules are to reduce profiteering, but someone is obviously using this forum for the purpose of selling stuff, whether for his own profit or not God knows, but you have not taken any action.

 

I have taken the liberty of listing his 17 posts:

 

1. *Need Stuff from USA?* LOOK HERE! **Gerald's Shipping Service*

2. *Need Stuff from USA?* LOOK HERE! **Gerald's Shipping Service*

3. WTS: ER-4P + P->S Cable, MINT CONDITION

4. *Need Stuff from USA or Amazon.com?** LOOK HERE! ***Gerald's S

5. FS: iPod Video 80GB (White)

6. WTS: ER-4P + P->S Cable, MINT CONDITION

7. WTS: ER-4P + P->S Cable, MINT CONDITION

8. WTS: ER-4P + P->S Cable, MINT CONDITION

9. FS:Lots of Nalgene Bottles, Diff. Models, w. Sipper *'07 Colors

10. FS: iPod Socks - Authentic, Original Apple Stuff

11. FS:Lots of Nalgene Bottles, Diff. Models, w. Sipper *'07 Colors

12. MO: Levi's Redwire Jeans for iPod!

13. Purchase of Shures Grey Sleaves

14. WTB: Shure Volume Attenuator, Medium Tips, New, Unused, Spare Set

15. Creative Zen Aurvana

16. *Advice Needed* ER-4P or ER-6?

 

I think I missed one but you get my drift. I guess at least 14 of his 17 posts are FS topics.

Regarding the 50 post count requirement, I think this place is so quiet, I think most people would rather post in Head-Fi or in that other forum...

[Absolute0 0]

He is one of those the new policy is aimed at, if you get my drift. As he now has less than 50 posts, he can no longer post any FS/WTS/IC/Shipping Service thread in the Classifieds.

 

You are welcome to post in whichever forum you desire.

[nofing 0]

Ahh, Gerald can't sell stuff here anymore? Lol. That's cool. But neither can I. And seriously, to post actively at 2 forums is really no joke. But I try and I feel that forums are more a place for discussions and insights. If it's going to be reduced to a marketplace, try eBay instead.

[PPkiller 0]

maybe mod can help those who can't get the minimium requirement to post FS on their behalf? that is for case by case basis...

 

to post 50 constructive posts is not that easy.. at least a few months i guess...

[Absolute0 0]

And what should be the criteria if we were to do this on a case-by-case basis?

[loop_ 0]

hmmm...you could say as a general rule that it's not allowed, but if someone is desperate to sell a piece of gear they have to PM you and tell you why it's not profiteering, and then you be the judge. Might be more work, some of the profiteers won't like it, but i think it makes sense.

 

The criteria would be that they are not profiteering. It's not difficult to distinguish such cases I think.

[Absolute0 0]

I'm personally not against this proposition but I'm not sure what the others in the moderating team think. Those who are "desperate" can try PMing us but no guarantees.

[tassardar_ 0]

Personally I feel that the new rule doesnt really help much against profitteers. A tighter moderation or more moderators will probably do more.