ablaze 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 rant is targeted at relative newbies and people without golden ears. the veterans amongst us will undoubtedly have their own opinions. I've decided that as far as the CD3000s are concerned, amps are highly unnecessary. lots of people will say "headphones need proper amplification to sound their best" At this point in time, I agree somewhat. but cans like the CD3000s just sound darn good (to my non-golden ears) without a dedicated headamp. Sure there are situations where you WILL need an amp. eg. your CDP doesn't have a headphone jack, or it just plain sucks (which is often the case) your cans are high impedance, low efficiency eg. the HD600s with the CD3000s, I'll say that a dedicated headamp will give you a couple of % more (quality-wise), but thats it. Sure amps will colour the sound. but "vast" improvement? not in my humble opinion. I think a lot of us buy into the hype that we read all over the place. We read it so often, and hear it so much from the more experienced amongst us, that we start to believe it whole-heartedly, and start expressing the opinions as if it were our own. I say, believe your own ears above all else. Its hard to ignore something when virtually EVERYONE else says it. I'll be brave and say that not all of us, especially the newbies, will hear the "extra detail" or "extra oomph" or the other improvements that this piece of equipment or that piece of equipment will give, regardless of whether EVERYONE says it. I guess this hype thing applies to not just amps, but to everything else. supposed synergy between this and that, how absolutely fantastic this amp sounds over the next, how this pair of cans sounds so much better than that, etc etc. For me, a lot of times that I get something new, in my mind, I've already firmly believed that its an improvement, even though I've never actually heard it. Why? cos everyone I've talked to and everything I've read would imply nothing else. so when I get an amp, subconsciously, there's a lot of imagined differences. even if there are perceptible differences, I now attribute it to the fact that its virtually impossible to match the loudness levels with and without the amp, unless you really bother to do proper objective measurements. (I'm talking about using an SPL meter, or measuring the AC output, with the cans connected to the output) And with an amp, often times we're just listening at a slightly higher loudness level. And many studies have shown (sorry I don't have any references) that with identical equipment, blind A/B tests will show that most will say the one that's just a fraction louder just sounds "bass is stronger. tighter, highs are unveiled, everything sounds more detailed, the music really sings now" etc. What does that sound like? you got it - the typical description of someone who's just gotten an amp to listen to his music, where he was previously unamped. In summary: I'm of the belief that expensive amplification is just not worth the money to me, with my cans. It definitely doesn't vastly improve the sound. yes there're subtle changes, but definitely not worth hundreds. Before you vehemently disagree with me: take your cans, assuming they're reasonably-high-efficiency cans, try using an adapter to run the headphones straight out of the RCA outputs (not the headphone output. thats just inferior in most cases) (with a volume pot to adjust the volume of course) WITHOUT a headamp. and tell me how "bad" that sounds. Don't listen to your cans out of the headphone jack on your CDP, and compare that with the RCA output-->headamp and declare that amps are phenomenal. Its not true, its just the headphone out thats crap Disclaimer: 1.I've been using the CD3000s for a long time, and the opinions here are based on my experience with them. I will not say that other high-efficiency cans will behave the same way, but I think there's a good chance they might. 2. my opinions are based on using the M-audio Revolution, and the RME 96/8 professional sound card. If you think that soundcards are "crap", then don't bother reading this. I believe that my sources are high quality enough that what I think would apply to most other sources <$1000. 3. my opinions are mine and mine alone. You may or may not feel the same way. You will or will not experience the same as I have. I definitely don't think I have "golden ears" so if you think thats reason enough to discredit everything I say, so be it this post is not to (?mis)lead newbies, its just to offer an opinion thats seldom heard in our circles 4. I realise this post will strike me out of the "audiophile" club, but I had to come out and say it eventually. some head-fi threads on a similar note: http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....ght=direct+path http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....ighlight=direct http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....?threadid=35854 http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....?threadid=31531 http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....?threadid=32785 http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....ght=direct+path *flame suit on* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ablaze 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 I realise that making a 2RCA-->female headphone jack option might not be within reach for most people, so perhaps, people with PCDPs and soundcards would more be able to relate to what I say Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headphonecrazy 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 I truly agreed with you on the topic, but IMHO a properly match headamp will add finesse to the already great headphones, if you have the xtra greens to spare. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ablaze 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 damn. I was hoping for flames Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duncan 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 Pick up a Sony D211 Discman, add in headphones with an impedance of less than 100 ohms, and i'm in agreement The Grado RS1 sing just as happily as the Koss KSC-35 out of this Discman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N@Z 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 Not quite a flame but I agree & disagree with some of your points. I don't want to argue the specifics as I don't particularly like arguing about subjective matters. I certainly can't comment much either as I feel I don't have enough technical know how & experience concerning this matter plus I don't use the same equipment as you do. However, I have satisfied myself with the fact that after the recent SGH meet I do not feel a great need to upgrade anymore as what I have now fulfills my listening pleasure. If you feel no amp is required just a volume control then go for it. Maybe posting this on Head-Fi would get your more responses. I certainly would like to hear what the more senior/more experienced members have to say about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duncan 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 Its all subjective Naz.. Sure, if you're using a cheap-assed Sony CD player like I am at the moment in my 'main setup', then the headphone jack really shows you how bad it can make your headphones sound... sounding hissy, lumpy, and altogether an embarrasement for all things headphone related... Then again, step back in time to the older Discmen that I seem to have an affection for, and they really do show you what is possible out of a standard jack Sure, the Discmen won't power Senns or so forth, and also they don't have by any means the last level of realism... but for what their application is, and how much I paid... they are exceptional My RS1 setup is left idling right now... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adhoc 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 my opinion is that you need a headphone amp, but not neccesarily a dedicated one. IMO a inbuilt headphone jack on a quality amp from a reputable manufacturer (eg rotel) can be just as good as most, if not all dedicated headphone amps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ablaze 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 N@Z, I refrained from posting my opinion on head-fi due to presence of some conceited character, whose opinions I wouldn't care for. I won't name names adhoc, you're right. you can safely say when I say "amp" in my first post, I'm referring to a DEDICATED headamp. even the output straight from the RCA outputs is amped. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headphonecrazy 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 Using a headamp is an acquired taste for some, but once you've tasted it there is usually no turning back. I think I'll need to go for detox & cold turkey treatment, please lock me up! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ablaze 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 headphonecrazy: but the question is, have you actually tried listening straight out of the RCA outputs WITHOUT a dedicated headamp? not talking about using the headphone jack yknow disclaimer: I've never actually tried listening this way myself. BUT, I'm extrapolating from my experience straight from my soundcard which outputs via a 1/4" stereo jack, at line-level volumes. I'm assuming this is the same as the output from a CDP, ie. only difference being my soundcard uses 1/4" TRS jack, while that on the CDP is a pair of RCAs. (correct me if I'm wrong) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headphonecrazy 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 (edited) headphonecrazy: but the question is, have you actually tried listening straight out of the RCA outputs WITHOUT a dedicated headamp? not talking about using the headphone jack yknow Yepp, on many many occasions, some quite memorable, some quite forgetable. One very good eg. is when I drove pair of cans (could not remember exactly which model but a Sony) thru a C.E.C. player, need I say more... BTW, be very careful if you are doing it straightout of the RCA, might just blow you drivers away - make sure you have variable out control on the player, lower the volume all the way down before plugging any thing in! Alternatively you can also have some passive volume control as an interface too. Edited August 23, 2003 by headphonecrazy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ablaze 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 oh cool. how would one actually make an RCA-->headphone-jack adapter. what value pot would be suitable? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N@Z 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 Based on your initial post we assumed you went to the trouble to do exactly that! This is quite interesting actually, assuming you meant directly from the source's RCA, wouldn't the result vary from different sources which essentially have differering line-out outputs from one another? Not to mention different headphones that will used for that matter? Unless the line-out has a significant signal output I didn't think it was feasible to be able to drive headphones directly even utilising a volume control which effectively is just a resistor. It may well work on CDP but with other sources say a Turntable this is nearly impossible due to the extremely low signal output whereby a phono amp is required in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fishball79 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2003 What ablaze suggest isn't available in the market, a passive volume control directly connecting between cd player output and low impedance headphones... perhaps someone could make one and test try with various cans... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
