DAC

[viix 0]

Well, if you look at current mastering studios now, every thing recorded and mastered is done on a digital system, like it or not, using computers high end or not. the Purist sound is polluted already at the mastering stage, like it or not, but it is not easily detectable.

 

Purist use transport to ensure there is no further degration down the line or at least kept to a minimum.

The PC adds noise to the chain hence it is not recommended. Because at the studio, all the recording equipment are shielded and properly protected with noise kept to a minimum but it is not 100% bit perfect. At times, upsampling is done, music is eqed and soundstaging adjusted to give a more pleasant listening experience. No music is pressed unedited so what purist are listening is not "that" pure. but again, their idealism of purity flows from the pressed recording down to their ears in the hifi chain.

 

Ultimately analog systems are the purest form. It's like film versus digital in photography. This debate can be endless. film is an art of light, just like hi fi in the tube days, fast forward to today, digital offers more accuracy, more depth, more dynamics to the photographer's free play. Purist photographer will use digital technoloy to capture the image without further enhancement, modern photograpers go the raw>photoshop way of adjustments and tweak to capture what is not possible or not even there during the image capture. Alot of purist don't realise that most presses of modern day are tweak one way or another.

 

So it boils down to 1 thing, your source (your cds and not the transport). How far would you go to listen to them. if it's normal presses, a sub level transport/even a properly configured pc system is sufficient. Most important is that your hifi chain does justice to the music. Don't spend too much, but also don't spend to little. ASk yourself if you can live with your choices. sometime, some things we percieve is pycological.

[razer 0]

Wow, that was a good read....Well, how should I start off with....hmmmm, ok, first of all, I don't listen to top notch recording or funny audiophile music. The best recording's that I've got is maybe DARK SIDE OF THE MOON by Pink Floyd and HELL FREEZES OVER by the Eagles as well as my Jazz At The Pawnshop album...That's got to be the best I've got...Other than that, most of my other music selection are albums like chinese pop, english pop, jazz and some classical with a quite a few Japan pressed Jap albums and stuff like that. None of my albums are pressed or released for the Mainland so I guess at least that's one of my least worries. Overall album qualities of my CD's should be above average i guess. The reason why a CDP to DAC and to AMP would be good is because of the noise issue from my computer but then again, a computer setup gives me so much convenience....So I'am sort of like in a Dilemna between choosing which route to take....

[viix 0]

Alot of audiophile misunderstand the whole digital process of audio using a pc as source.

 

Using EAC at bit level to capture and convert to lossless is very very accurate. True to the presses without any loss of infomation nor subceptible to noise pollution. There is only the concern of your cdrom drive's lens pickup, whether it is able to faithfully capture every bit in the cd. This issue of capturing the disc image accurately can be solved by reading the disc at low speeds. Which at bit level beats any transport hands down.

 

EAC has a function to do error correction IIRC, and the conversion to lossless is purly digital. No worries of noise as the digital process is all 1s & 0s.. 5vs & Ground in electical term. RF and noise will not affact the process as flactuations in the voltages will register the digital signal accurately still. As the 1s in digital is registered as anywhere from 3v - 7v and zero is registered as anything below 1.5v, the signal is not degraded in any sense. (any electronic students can help to verify this 1s & Zero's voltages? It's been so long since I've touch my digital electronics lol)

 

Unless your PC have a faulty PSU which cannot provide a clean 5v and ground rail, there should be no concern up till this point.

 

Now hereon is where noise will come in. Processing the lossless files into audio signal via soundcard or digital out IS affected by case fans, hdd etc.. because the soundcard is wthin, expect negligable loss of quality.. (here's where audiophile bashes the computer as a source)

 

To cut this problem, use an offloaded standalone sound processer. (eg. a Squeezebox 3 by slim devices) The music data is converted to audio signal away from the computer. Here, you get almost as good a dedicated transport and dac can offer you if not better. (the quality of squeezebox is almost audiophile level)

 

Now audiophiles bash using PCs as source is because they probably use a USB sound card or via a USB Dac with Foobar. This method sure adds noise, although how much is dependant on how well configured is your system. Because the digital files are processed in many chains within the PC before being converted to audio in the outboard dac. You get some losses during these few chains of processing.

 

To match the PCs as transport versus a dedicated audiophile setup, a squeezebox or some better standalone media player is the way to go. AFAIK, squeezebox is the best of current available players there is.

[evil-zen 0]

Way to go viix!

 

I wonder how many of those PC audio bashers have heard an audiophile soundcard sending EAC ripped lossless digital to a suitable DAC.

Edited June 24, 2006 by evil-zen

[razer 0]

Btw, how are these two players....One is the SCD-XA333ES SACD player and the other one is the Myryad MCD200. I've read some reviews on the myryad player but its sort of mixed...with some people loving them and some hating them...As for the sony player, i can't seem to find any info on them...

 

And btw, regarding the the post by viix, you mean that you're suggesting i get something like the Squeezebox and then connect to an amp ? Or do I get it and connect it to the dac then to the amp? I've seen some people having the squeeze box to their storm digital 002 and then to their headphone amp.

[Rameish 0]

Having been in the advertising agency game for more then a decade and spending too much time at recording studios with singers, audio engineers, voice talent etc. perhaps I can clarify things a bit.

 

If your computer set up is as high end as that found in studios or whatever the home equivalent is and you have the know how and time tweaking then maybe thats the way to go.

 

Just audition and trust your ears more then the salesperson. I'm not sure if you will be able to audition a PC setup but maybe one of two of the guys here can help in that department.

 

Just trust your ears.

 

Let me add this in just so you know where I'm coming from. I prefer vinyl over cd/sacds. I prefer cds over mp3. Looing at the kinds of headphones you have I would opt for a good S$2K plus CDP but then you are not me :-) The whole idea behind hi-fi for me is to prevent any further loss/alteration to the source (vinyl/cd etc). And since I dont have the ability or energy I'll just stick to a good CDP/turntable.

Edited June 24, 2006 by Rameish

[razer 0]

OK, lets say i decide to get a CDP instead, how's a second hand sony SCD-XA333ES SACD player or a Myryad MCD200 player?

[Rameish 0]

Once again that's up to you to decide based on system synergy. There's no real alternative to auditioning things - as a system - and with your ears. So if you have to for that reason only, buy new - either a PC or CDP based system.

 

Coming back to your original post about DACs in the $2k market my bet would be to spend that money on a CDP - it could be a Cary, CEC, Esound or any other brand like TEAC. TEAC is in there because of the excellent transport that the upmarket TEAC players use (they do make some cheap CDPs that dont use such a good transport btw).

 

Why dont you send time checkin out a couple of PC based systems and a couple of CDP based systems and then decide?

 

 

[razer 0]

Hmmm, so if i were to go for the CD route, then probably, I'll look into the CARY CDP-1. As for the Eastsound, are there any companies here carrying them ?

[av98m 0]

As for the Eastsound, are there any companies here carrying them ?

The answer to this question was already given in page one of this thread.

[Rameish 0]

No they dont seem to have an agent/dealer here. But the good news is this: Try some of the PC audio guys here and see if they will let you audition a PC based system. Then go down to Adelphi and you can check out the Spark CDT-17 at Precision Audio (Ground Floor) or even what Musical Fidelity has to offer (ground floor as well) the head to the 2nd level and check out the Cary and CEC. There's absolutely no harm in auditioning. I have heard the Esound and I must say I have been impressed by it.

[cmk 0]

So may i ask you what are you connecting your DAC-1 to ?

 

CEC TL2

Slinky Links AES/EBU cable

Benchmark DAC1

Slinky Links silver RCA ICs

 

Power cords are JPS digital

Isolation is DH Jumbo cones

[Mackie 0]

I've not come across a top notch PC based studio but seen a few mixer console-based studios. Let's take into consideration of a home pc based sound system vs dedicated cdp as source. There're these questions which the concerned has to answer for himself. Do you believe in the functions and feasibility of speakers stands, spike/cones/isolators, resonance, RFI and mechanical feedback? If all these mean nothing to him/her, a pc based system will satisfy his/her needs. However, if the aforementioned are of concerns, using a pc as transport shall not be ideal over a dedicated cdp.

 

First and foremost, the fan. The whole chassis vibrates and the mechanical energy tranfers to all areas and especially the cd-rom transport. A good cdp will strive to isolate mechanical feedback from outside vibration (stronger and dampened chassis) and also the spinning motion of the cd during playback. Massive vibrations will cause laser pickup to skip while minor ones could result in the need for greater digital correction, thus, compromising sound quality in the later stages of analogue conversation. Secondly, great care is exercised in internal wiring of a cdp in order to minimize interference (RFI/EMI) to sensitive circuitry but the same cannot be said for a pc. Also, the PCB of a good cdp will have shorter signal routes and separation of power and signal ground/sections, all for the sake of better sound quality. Last but not least, the transport mechanism and laser pickup of a good cdp shall be more rigid and stable than a cd-rom transport in a pc. Audio manufacturers recognise the fact that a solid transport and laser pickup system does add (if not one of the main keys) to the betterment of final playback quality.

 

Nonetheless, the final approach to choosing a pc or cdp source will depend on personal audition. If one can't tell the difference, take the approach that gives better economic feasibility and convenience.

 

razor: If your budget is flexible, why not audition Electrocompaniet EMC-1? Great sounding player aside, it has a darn solid floating transport and its DAC is a match if not superior to standalone DACs too. What's also imperative to note is that its DAC can be upgraded simply by inserting a card. For example, the EMC-1 initially carried a 24 bit/96KHz DAC when this was the latest technology. Later versions carry 24 bit/192KHz (EMC-1UP) DAC but those who own the initial versions can have their DAC upgraded simply by removing/inserting the card (done by dealer, of course) at a cost of S$800+. There's also another power supply upgrade kit that it's said to improve sound quality by significant margin. All these suggest the EMC-1 is a player that is designed to adapt to upgrades and unlikely to be superseded. However, it will cost you more than S$5000 at High End Research.

 

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/

Edited June 26, 2006 by Mackie

[razer 0]

I did take a look at that player....Its pretty darn nice but the price is a little over my budget for the time being. I guess I'll wait for a while and decide on that player instead. Seems like it solves quite alot of my worries about CD players with a moderate DAC or Transport + DAC jitter issues...Thanks for that MAckie! Plus point for the player is that it looks amazingly sexy...Sleek black...I gotta hate you for that Mackie!! There goes my wallet again....

[viix 0]

First and foremost, the fan. The whole chassis vibrates and the mechanical energy tranfers to all areas and especially the cd-rom transport. A good cdp will strive to isolate mechanical feedback from outside vibration (stronger and dampened chassis) and also the spinning motion of the cd during playback. Massive vibrations will cause laser pickup to skip while minor ones could result in the need for greater digital correction, thus, compromising sound quality in the later stages of analogue conversation. Secondly, great care is exercised in internal wiring of a cdp in order to minimize interference (RFI/EMI) to sensitive circuitry but the same cannot be said for a pc. Also, the PCB of a good cdp will have shorter signal routes and separation of power and signal ground/sections, all for the sake of better sound quality. Last but not least, the transport mechanism and laser pickup of a good cdp shall be more rigid and stable than a cd-rom transport in a pc. Audio manufacturers recognise the fact that a solid transport and laser pickup system does add (if not one of the main keys) to the betterment of final playback quality

 

Using a PC to play discs in real time is a big fat NONO, the reasons are stated by mackie already. The only advantage and real purpose of PC based system is when you have taken the effort to capture the disc into software. and playing back from a digital archive.

 

EAC has the ability to do many passes of scans, where the scans is analyse and computed in a percentage to the user on the final quality of the scan. This is a tedious process of capturing whereby many people shun pc based systems. simply because the way a pc is bulit around high speed circuitry, alot of effort is required in shielding the system for capture. A dedicated CD transport wins hands down here because the technology of these transport has been around some time and perfected.

 

But here's where the value comes in. A software based audio jukebox doen't suffer from wear and tear unlike a CD. few years down, the audio from a pc sounds as good, but a cd might suffer a drop in quality.

But on the other hand there are viruses and file corruption also... but it should be of no concern because the PC based system should purely be a dedicated digital jukebox for music and not multitask work and internet.

 

... I could go on endless, but IMHO, a CD transport is easier to manage & maintain than a PC based. It boils down to your NEEDs, CONCERNs, and ultimately BUDGET, not forgeting which system puts you in the comfort-zone of musical enjoyment.

 

Select one system that adds value to your life, not one that gives you a headache of maintainance..

Edited June 26, 2006 by viix